Neil deGrasse Tyson was Accused of Sexual Assault and Everyone Ignored It

Hi, I’m T1J. [WEIRD VOICE]: Follow me! So as you can see, I’m sorta putting together
a little bit of a set here, it’s definitely a work in progress. But I can show you around; what we have so
far. This is Edgar. This is Jay and Bob. This is my YouTube pillow that I got a Vidcon
2 years ago. This is Russel. Don’t worry about that stuff at the top, that’s
just…my medicine. This right here is a thing you can buy! This is a Rubik’s cube because I have found
that being able to solve a Rubik’s cube is very impressive to people. So I want to signal to you, that I can do
that. And this right here–well this guy, I have
really named yet. Maybe you guys can help me with that. So if you have any ideas for good names for
my friend over here, drop them in the comments. And if you like the name give it a thumbs
up, and we’ll see what you guys think. Anyway, today we are going to check the voicemail. So let’s go ahead and do that. [CALLER:] Hi, I just finished watching your
YouTube video on “How to Separate Art from the Artist”. My name is Dan, by the way, from Tennessee. And I had a follow up question in regards
to that. For instance, I’ve been struggling with something
recently. Neil deGrasse Tyson, love him, he’s the best. However, I read a Patheos article about a
woman who had basically come out and said that Neil deGrasse Tyson sexually assaulted
her, and none of this has been addressed by Neil deGrasse Tyson. But I’m left with this sour taste in my mouth
of like, “no, not Neil deGrasse Tyson! How could it be?!” But then, nothing has ever been confirmed–I
mean, I’m always on the side of women here. My gut reaction is to believe them. But with something that’s unconfirmed like
this, I don’t know what to do with these feelings. So ever since then, I’ve just stopped consuming
information from Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know I just have a sour taste in my mouth
and I just don’t know how to feel. How would you separate those feelings from
the art in that situation? Any thoughts on this would be very helpful. [T1J:] Thank you for the message. So for those of you who have not watch my
video about separating art from artists, you might wanna do that first, so you have a more
thorough idea of my stance on that subject. There should be a thing up there somewhere
to click. And if not then check the description. I actually vaguely remember hearing about
a sexual assault accusation against Neil DeGrasse Tyson, but I’ve never looked into it. And of course there was very little discussion
or press coverage of it. And I must admit it’s something that completely
left my mind until listening to this voicemail. So for background, a couple years ago Tchiya
Amet, a musician and blogger claimed that Neil deGrasse Tyson drugged and sexually assaulted
her in 1984 when they were both students at UT Austin, .
This was virtually ignored by mainstream media, and only reported on by independent blogs
on sites like Science2.0 and Patheos. But given the mad dash last year for major
media outlets to report on the #MeToo movement. This seems kind of strange. It’s possible that Amet’s story simply
lacks what these outlets think is enough evidence to consider reporting on it. Although according to her twitter, Amet was
in contact with a reporter at least as recently as April of this year, so maybe we’ll hear
more about it eventually. I don’t know. I’ve also been fan of Neil deGrasse Tyson
for a while myself, and I don’t know him personally, and honestly I don’t want or
need to know him personally. If I’ve learned anything from the MeToo
movement it’s that, it is a mistake to assume that people who make stuff that I like are
also likely to be great human beings. I mean it’s awesome when they turn out to
be, but there’s no real reason to expect that. And for that reason I think it is only practical
to separate art from artist. Or else, you may not get to enjoy much of
anything. Now of course, if an individual person decides
that they just can’t enjoy or support a person anymore, that is completely their prerogative. If you watch the video I suggested at the
beginning, you’ll find that that was my reaction to R. Kelly and Louis C.K. But, and I guess this is probably my lukewarm
take of the video: I don’t think that anyone is morally required to stop enjoying things
that are made by bad people. Now on Neil deGrasse Tyson specifically, the
alleged assault happened over 30 years ago. And I definitely don’t think that a person
should constantly have to answer for something they did a long time ago when they were a
different person, assuming they have changed and become better. However, if you did do something that hurt
someone else, you should own up to it and do everything in your power to ease the wounds
you caused to that person. So if these allegations are true, Tyson has
definitely failed to do that. You’ll notice that I’m refraining from
using the phrase “innocent until proven guilty.” Which is a common thing that you hear in conversations
about sexual assault accusation, even well meaning people. I don’t use this phrase, because I think,
unless you’re a judge, a lawyer, or a member of a jury assigned to this case specifically,
“innocent until proven guilty” is irrelevant to you. I’ve used similar analogies before, but say
If a woman comes up to you and says, “Hey I need your help, there’s someone following
me, I think they might be trying to hurt me!” I doubt that most of you would you say, “I
need more evidence. Innocent until proven guilty!” Because that would make you an asshole. Since we aren’t participating in a courtroom
situation, it is not our job to determine who is innocent and who is guilty. It is our job to show compassion to our fellow
human beings when they come to us for help. Sometimes people lie, yes. When it comes sexual assault, rarely, as has
been shown in many studies. But even considering that it happens sometimes,
I don’t think that absolves you of the obligation to be a decent human being. So when people say “I believe the victim”
that is not necessarily the same thing as saying, “I have determined that the person
the victim accused is guilty of the crime of sexual assault.” Personally when I say “Believe women”
or ‘believe whoever,’ I’m not even really thinking about the person who was accused. I don’t know them and I wasn’t there. All I know is that someone has reached out
and I believe the duty of a compassionate human is to show support. Beyond that, situations like this are usually
very complex. To reduce it down to ‘either things happened
100% the way she describes it, or she is 100% lying and the accused person is totally innocent,’
seems to me be an unlikely dichotomy. So I believe Tchiya Amet, and I hope that
more people are able to listen to her story. As for Neil deGrasse Tyson, I don’t know
him, I wasn’t there. If he is guilty of wrongdoing, he should admit
to it and possibly face justice. But making that part happen is outside the
scope of my, and most of your, practical capabilities. If you feel that this makes you unable to
enjoy Tyson’s work that’s perfectly reasonable, and you shouldn’t feel weird about it. As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve begun to
completely separate my admiration for a person’s character from my admiration for their work,
unless it seems to me that their work is directly informed or inspired by the shitty aspects
of their behavior, as in the case of R. Kelly and Louis CK. I don’t feel that way as of yet about Neil
deGrasse Tyson, but who knows what will happen in the future. DAS JUS ME DOE. What do you think? If you’d like to ask a question or make
a comment, call the number on the screen and leave me a voicemail. And maybe I’ll respond to it in a future
video. If you want to support this channel, consider
becoming a Patron on Patreon. Even $1 a month goes a long way. Big shoutouts to my existing Patrons, I will
see you all in the next video! Bye!

100 thoughts on “Neil deGrasse Tyson was Accused of Sexual Assault and Everyone Ignored It

  1. But you don't know tachiya anymore than you do Neil degrasse Tyson so why do you believe her but choose not to make any kind of judgment on Neil?

  2. "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" has become an equivocation fallacy, as it conflates the court of law and and the court of public opinion as being the same thing.

  3. I understand people wanting someone to answer for their crimes, but to make it public to the masses seems, to me, an attempt to defame that person and prevent separating the artist from the art. These allegations do need to be handled, but doing so publicly doesn’t make sense to me.

  4. When somebody is accused of rape or sexual assault/misconduct, my general philosophy (in famous people's case) is that they may be guilty, they may not be, to say that they are guilty isn't accurate, as there is only anecdotal evidence to prove this fact, but to say that they are innocent isn't quite accurate either. At that stage the only truly accurate thing to say, unless you have some secret knowledge which the public can't access, is that they have been accused of sexual assault. Once evidence and testimony begins or is released, then people can make up their minds whether they believe the person is guilty. That said, to post on that person's page that they are a rapist before conviction or evidence is brought forth is wrong, but it is also wrong to say that the accuser is a liar before they have had a chance to bring forth their evidence.

  5. Its funny how Drunk women can pretty much touch up a man and feel His pecks and his biceps, without actually asking him, and no one bats an eyelid and sees it as harmless fun, but if a Drunk Man (hell doesn't even need to be drunk) did the same and touched a woman on her hips, waist or anywhere for that matter without consent, people lose their minds

  6. You even look at a person these days and you get accused of rape. I don't believe he did anything. But you know guilty until proven innocent is how it goes these days.

  7. Yeah right , not surprised . Who's next Denzel ……….. 100 years later. When there's no trial or anything just a bunch of people saying whatever they want and screwing people's lives up with bull crap.

  8. But..if you show support for the accuser you are basically saying the accused is guilty and by doing so you are not showing THEM compassion.

  9. UPDATE (12/1/2018): NDT is currently being investigated by the companies that produce his show (Fox and National Geographic) "Cosmos" after 2 more allegations of sexual misconduct came forth.

  10. Is that “unnamed” thing vinyl? And if so who created that? I’m an artist who collects all kinds of things so I’m curious.

  11. You Tubes newest atheist star should put aside his "I don't believe in God" routine for awhile and tell us what it is about atheism that justifies sexually assaulting women.

  12. But bro Louis barely did anything he technically didn't even sexually assault anyone. It was really percy and creepy but I think ppl blew it out of proportions.

  13. "innocent until proven guilty" is not some thick legal concept only smelly old judges adscribe to in some courthouse. It is common sense that should be applied by everyone, because people's lives have been destroyed by lies. One should not automatically disbelieve women who come with accusations, nor throw derision at them. But one should not automatically believe either.

  14. Hi,

    People who make accusations without any evidence are called, "FALSE WITNESSES."

    This the same tactic used before
    to bring down a decent, upstandind, and positive role model for millions of americans.


  15. He looked at a woman's tattoo in public,seriously this is ridiculous. The other allegation is that he wore a tank top while looking into another woman's eyes. These kind of embellishments have gotten so bad maybe all celebrities should never be alone with anyone without having a witness present.

    He looked at a woman's tattoo in view of twenty other people so what?

  16. That chick 🤢🤢🤢🤢. The recent Supreme Court nominee’s issue arose similarly – it happened in high school. Different setting/context, as he was being selected for a judgeship, but still applicable. As freaky as that hippy lady appears, this will likely go nowhere.

  17. Tyson said he loves Pluto, but we now see that Uranus really "hubbles" his "telescope".. wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more!

  18. I normally dont take pleasure in the downfall of anyone but sometimes its too irresistible not to delight in such pleasures. this case is o e in which I can't help myself. I never liked this nigga because I could sense his conceit that he think he's so intelligent. Anytime white people validate negroes like this they show off on other negroes especially. All this nigga was and is good at is regurgitating what white scientist have thought him. he never publish or discover any thing on his own. Any average person can go on stage an do what he's famous for. Now the very white system that promoted him is ready to dethrone him. When he allegedly sexually harassed these three women , I can't help but think he believed in his inferior intellect that he was somehow special and could do these things with impunity. And although I found out just recently that his wife is white, I can't claim I was surprised. You see, I dont believe there are any black women good enough for Mr Swell Head.

  19. A brilliant, nuanced video on this topic. I wish more people had similar level of intellect and rationality to yours, these cases are rarely as black-and-white as people think and should be approached with more calm (as hard as it can be in the current environment)

  20. But Tyson is supposed to be a trusted source of information on the world around us. He’s supposed to debunk flat earth. If he has a skewed moral compass to commit such a crime, he has it in him to lie about science.

  21. Tfw people are treating this like he didn't just make a bad joke like he always does. C'mon now, he's been studying Uranus for years and NOW we have a problem with it?

  22. I never watched his lecture about every human on earth originating in Africa, But I bet, certain groups targeted him after this. (this is information thousands of years old btw) Men of pigment unfortunately can not trust most women on earth. . Most of you won't see the connection, but the most exploited people are women and black woman are worse. Money to how they feel are more important than the person sometimes. It is harder for pigmented men to recognize these destructive traits in women because the women they are exposed to (mother to sisters, magazines), self hating , mistreated women covering everything with a smile and looks. (girls wearing ugly blonde wigs/ looking ugly to me and self hate ) ..the child , the son looks into those eyes daily, it is hard for a pigmented/ black/ melanin (you call it) to see when he is dealing with a toxic woman due to the self hate he is accustomed to being around daily (mom talking bad about her hair to her friend while holding the baby boys hand , he is exposed to that as a baby, and has the same hair) (this isn't a 100% truth, just a highly observant truth for most of earths population) I hope it isn't blown out of hand, but , All men can be targets for wanting to love and more, some men can't see when he is dealing with a toxic woman, infact , some men are raised to deal with toxic women now. He is a target. Blessing to everyone. This is just icing on the cake. I AM NOT PICKING A SIDE. A reason why more men with pigment are attacked like this and hard for them to see a good soul. I know many women filled with self hate. Sucks cause, it's all in the mind, and what they consider liberation usually is more corrupt behavior…I'm a stop there.

  23. Innocent until proven guilty is not a principle which is restricted to the legal process. It is a fundamental constitutional right!!

    What does "supporting a woman who accuses a man of sexual assault" mean? Especially a woman to whom you are not acquainted? Moreso after thirty-three years? And particularly when the accused was a non-entity?

    Why is there no allegation of thirty-year-old rape against Joe the Plumber?

    If an unknown female approaches me with fears of being in danger, I am wise enough to ask certain questions and to exercise caution before embarking on any course of action.

    Only fools rush in!!

  24. Are you nuts? "My gut feeling is to believe women, im always on womens side" doesnt that sound sexist according to your standards? I was obssesed with him until some women claimed he raped her almost 40 years ago…" Im really sorry, thing like this must be stressful and traumatizing but you really cant expect proper investigation of a crime from 40 years ago. How many times this year was there this scenario? Sucsessful man had beed accused of sexual harassment by 1 women few weeks later few more join in on the train, they know that it cant be prooven nor true nor false but the accusation alone is enough to damage or ruin mans life. On the worst side women like this get out with minimal consequences, some minor fines or something and man face intensive iterogation, they are shunned by public and their carriers are ruined. No matter nothing has been prooven. Human kind does not deserve to survive another 100 years, it was fun while it lasted, but fuck this world Im off with Elon Musk, gonna build a normal thinking world on Mars…

  25. The accusations are too stupid. Like the planet tattoo on the chick's shoulder for one. Just petty and heartless Bi***es trying to burn the wrong one. All these me too movement jumpers need to stop. Also I am a victim twice of sexual assault. So sympathetic to the act isn't even a factor. It is a horrible experience..physically the most painful experiences of my life and mentally damaging for the rest of your life. No way in hell is Tyson a man like that.

  26. I think it is kind of inappropriate to be talking about a subject as serious as this, but start the video off with edgar, jay, bob, and "things you can buy (from teespring probably)." But I guess the money and Patreon are more important, huh?

  27. Really? You can look up this stuff in 10 min. 1 of the allegations is a just stupid, the 2nd is, IF accurate comes down to probably a tame pass at a girl though he is married, the 3rd is serious but doesnt make sense as why would you drug someone you have a repeating relationship with. Except for the worst case scenereo this me too stuff has soiled the life of a uniquely charismatic intellectual for no reason at all.

  28. You are seriously the best. Sexual assault survival is nuanced as is the response to it. We don't have to think and act in absolutes all the time.

  29. I completely agree with your sentiment of believing the victim, but how things are now, that "believing the victim" has turned into pretty much socially linch the acused without looking into the issue first, thats where I have a problem.

  30. Hey, this has nothing to do with this video (which I loved, thank you), but just wanted to say I would love to see a video from you about Steven Pinker. Having a hard time figuring that guy out, but he's associated with, like… Jordan Peterson so that can't be too good xDqq

  31. No offense but someone who's afraid they're being followed is not the same thing. If a black man was accused of rushing a police officer or having a weapon that justified the cops shooting him a dozen times, you wouldn't immediately believe he was guilty of that. You'd say innocent until proven guilty. Why is this standard reversed for people accused of sexual stuff? And don't tell me "well false accusations are rare". So are false accusations of theft and murder and the like but people are still supposed to presume innocence.

  32. I didn't like him before I knew about this. He said some horrible things about sour and small apples. Also he said that GMOs are the same as artificially selected cultivars, essentially supporting industrial agriculture and agribusiness.

  33. "always on the side of the women"? no always on the side of the facts, which to paraphrase NDT, don't care about your gender.

  34. The innocent until proven guilty thing is weird I think personally. I tend to just assume I've not been lied to I guess, or treat both sides as if they are telling the truth despite conflicting stuff. I wouldn't make brash decisions based on that though, guess I'm an asshole.

  35. I kinda see it, if TJ1 is saying what I think he's saying, be sympathetic to both parties. The accuser and the accused are people, not evil monsters. I do not like the MeToo movement as I think they push for legal punishment or social alienation as far as I have seen even if the crime isn't real, but I do like TJ's take on this. Be a compassionate loving person which means, in a weird way, believing the victim by supporting them and I think if I understand this correctly, not attacking the accused but supporting them and allowing the judicial system fix the issue and bring justice. I probably didn't word this correctly but this video has really helped me understand my attitude towards crime and high profile people. Thanks TJ.

  36. “Today is October 8, 2014. 30 years. Today there was an eclipse, during the Ra Aspolia Pi Cot Sahu (Full Moon and Portal of Djehuty (Sun in Sidereal Virgo, Moon in PIsces, Mercury Retrograde). Kinda intense when you really sit bak and take it all in. Tomorrow, Set (Mars, Ego) has an appointment with Master healer Imhotep (Mars enters Ophiuchus: tome for healing from sexual trauma, time for conquering lower nature, etc).”

    “All this to say that this posting is in alignment with the Divine Natural Right Order. Although I know this is the right decision, it has been difficult to take action, because I know this monster [i.e., Tyson] is loved by so many of you. However, in order to maintain my own well being, peace of mind, sanity, longevity, positivity, peaceful relationships, health, happiness, self love and self trust, in order to elimnate blocks to my own abundance and prosperity, it has become impossible to keep silent anymore.”

    ‘I Survived RAPE by Neil de Grasse Tyson; The Blue Lotus Speaks!’
    The actual post of Tchiya Amet El Maat , a.k.a. Staci Hambric. Who NDC had a relationship with in 1984.
    (Note the spelling errors are hers.)
    Sounds believable.

  37. NGDT always kinda gave me that kind of creepy dude vibe, talking louder than everyone sometimes over them, not something you find as intensely or as often as in women…

  38. The only reason I knew about these accusations, is because Sugar Pine 7 talked about it… Since they are a comedy channel they make a lot of jokes, but in between they make sure to punctuate how wrong what NDT did was (if he did it).

  39. The thing with NDT is that in a lot of ways he is his work. Not just that his work is informed by his behavior but that he himself is his work. A lot of it is that here is this guy that likes to inspire people to think about the universe, answer questions, ruin movies, in a variety of settings but it’s almost always about him and so it’s a lot harder to enjoy any of his work without addressing him as a problem.

  40. I think it's okay to recognize people are talented or creative or smart but personally I wouldn't like buy there shit or see them live or anything. but yeah it's hard to say what's morally just considering it's pretty difficult for one person to have an effect, but maybe if everyone shunned them. i mean idk it poses the question to me tho: do you think there's anyone just as smart in the world rn as Neil degras Tyson (maybe even this lady he assaulted (sorry blanking on the name even tho you just said it)) that has never and with never rape somebody and just isn't getting the recognition?

  41. Never heard about this because he doesn't fit the narrative nor agenda of the Media. (I think he's arrogant.)

  42. New fan of yours here, and I want to push back a little on your note about "innocent until proven guilty" only being applicable to judges and such. The analogy you gave about a woman saying someone is following her does not put you in a "side choosing" scenario — helping her does not require you to incriminate any particular person. In allegations of sexual assault, the opposite is usually the case. This does open the door to another conversation that I'd love to see you cover, though: when should we abide by "the spirit" of governmental principles (presumption of innocence and free speech, just to name two examples) on an interpersonal level, and when should we relegate those principles to the law and abide by different principles in our daily lives?

  43. Name the horse head Dave Rubin. lol Just so every time we look at it we can all be reminded of what a useful idiot dave rubin is.

  44. CNN reported on March 21, 2019 that the investigation of NDT by Fox and Nat Geo had concluded and that he would be returning to their programs. No further comment on the investigation was made, according to the report

  45. Colbert and Seinfeld had an interesting conversation about this with regards to Bill Cosby, and Colbert basically said the same thing as you, which I agree with. Bill Cosby's comedy, which is constructed around his image as a wholesome family man, is completely unenjoyable when you know how rotten to the core he really is. Same with Louie. However, I hate Jerry Seinfeld personally (because he's a piece of shit), but am not repulsed by his more observational style of comedy, from which his personality is more removed. Obviously a 100% separation isn't possible, but I at least don't feel like I need a shower after watching the Bee Movie.

  46. The video should have stopped at "I am allways on the side of woman here" that is so ignorant and straight up stupid. I am allways on the side of the truth, and try not to judge people without any sort of evidence other than word of mouth.

  47. At the time of the first allegation the only known victim was a black woman. I wonder if that was a reason why it caused so few reactions.

  48. Its simple: Any woman making any claim about any man should firstly go to the police BEFORE "going to a journalist". The latter smacks of public sympathy rather than a desire for criminal behaviour to be punished (if proven). Her claims will (or should) then be considered/investigated as to their validity or chance of arrest and conviction. If no legal case can be mounted from her claims, then she had better just shut up, or else it's libel. End of story.

    This is the problem with MeToo — it's a rumour mill, a kangaroo court, and trial by media. It's not a case of innocent until proven guilty but a case of fair due process for all people of both sexes. And when such claims, 35 years old, of "he drugged me and sexually assaulted me" that can mean anything — in retrospect. Eg, Two students share a joint (The Drug). They go to his room where he fondles her and she says "I don't want this" (nowadays called Sexual Assault). They split and go home. It happened 1 million times per annum in those years. Only NOW, she decides she's pissed off and realises that MeToo can wreak a little havoc upon her "attacker".

    By all means believe her that something happened.
    By all means give her comfort based on any discomfort or trauma she may have felt at the time.
    But she could just as well have gone to NDGT, in private, and said "Do you remember that time …" and "I'd like an apology from you". Any reasonable man would say yes. And that would be that. But, he would never be sure if, nowadays, she might not bring charges against him for his admission or extort/threaten him with going public.

    So, the question is the woman's motive — A personal apology? Public sympathy? Revenge by media slur? Punishment by law? Self empowerment? It's waaaay to complex to opine via YouTube and Facebook and Twitter.

    If women want their sexual assaults taken seriously, they should utilise ONLY the serious medium of due legal process. It is not the police's nor anyone's job to either believe or disbelieve them. It is to fairly find out the truth via proper processes.

    And the silly guy on the voicemail was worrying about not facts but only his fantasy of "what if it's true" plus maybe a case of the accuser's historical revisionism or the accuser's twisted motives. Either way, the claims have nothing to do with his own appreciation of NDGT's professional body of work. Ffs, can't he think that through for himself, rather than asking a YouTube personality for advice. Sheesh.

  49. I did as deep a dive as I could into her accusations, evidence, and the fallout on my blog last year:

  50. I kind of feel the same about Mel Gibson. I still really enjoy some of his movies. Especially the ones where he portrays a flawed character, who is not stomping around being right all the time (the first Lethal Weapon, Signs, Conspiracy Theory, directors cut of Payback). I think part of why his behavior didn't bother me so much is because I assumed he was a mean, racist drunk since the early 90-ies. His dad used to show up in the tabloids saying nice things about Nazis. Mel, himself, always preached about being a old fashioned strict father in interviews. And I always thought he had the glossy eyed look of someone who drinks regularly. So when he started getting arrested and ranting racist shit I was like "Sure, sure. I always thought this is who he is when he slips". Artist being offensive, self centered, loudmouth primadonnas that doesn't care for the needs of others is pretty much an expected stereotype anyway.

  51. I would believe her if she had actually accused him. But according to what I read even she isn't sure what happened.

  52. Believing women no matter what just because they're women is non sense, however the accusations must be taken seriously and recieve the attention it deserves this aplies to Neil Tyson and also to Bill Clinton who was accused of rape,
    Regarding Neil Tyson it's possible that both he and the girl were voluntarily using drugs and they just had sex being drugged, then they woke up the next day and she felt taken advantage of even when she voluntarily had had sex with him, i've seen cases like that, and that is not rape. Or it's possible that he actually drugged her and raped her that's why the accusations must be investigated and taken seriously, Bill Clinton was accused of violently rape a woman it could not be true, but you must get to the motive of that accusation to get closer to what really happened.

  53. This does not surprise me about Neil, if those allegation turned out to be true , because if you have noticed a pattern among groups and public figure like that, whether they be religious and non-religious, the public figure are all horny little wankers who cannot keep it in their pants.

  54. I'd say believe the person in front of you. If a friend told me he was falsely accused of sexual assault I'd believe him. If he said he was sexually assaulted I'd believe him. Neither of these people were in front of me, so I'd have to look at the details of the case. You didn't discuss the details of the case. From what I've read, I believe Neil.

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